Comments received up to 15th October 2004 on the first Draft

Article #CommentsComment by:
Preamble

Role of state governmental and non-governmental agencies does not feature, as these agencies are engaged in listing and protecting heritage buildings/ structures and areas through their own town planning acts and heritage conservation committees.

It is not clear under the broad headings in the structure of the charter who should use this charter.

Rajender Singh

Aren’t the tangible and intangible also reflected in historic towns and other places that would not be termed ‘cultural landscapes’?

Is it clear what is being referred to as ‘Unprotected’ in this preamble? It would help to add ‘protecting and’ before the word ‘preserving’ in Clause 3, OR by adding ‘by the ASI or SDA’ after the words ‘and unprotected’ in Clause 5, OR both.

I assume that you think the ASI and SDA would not accept an INTACH Charter that covered ALL cultural heritage places? (cf. our Burra Charter which is accepted by government and the private sector as the guidelines covering all heritage places).

William Logan

The title seems too exclude a whole range f unprotected built heritage: the Jew cemetery, Dutch cemetery as in Fort Cochin, and the likes across the country; the crosses dotted all over Goa… Perhaps to be all encompassing we need a charter for conservation of unprotected ‘cultural expressions in built form’.

Poonam Verma

Why we are secluding “Protected” Architectural Heritage. Do we all agree with the principles / practice of conservation followed to conserve this heritage?

Munish Pandit

Page 1, Line 1 and Art. 6.2 make it very INTACH specific Charter only for INTACH to follow. Is that the intent or is it/ should it be a Charter for the Conservation of Unprotected Architectural Heritage of India - as the title suggests for all to follow.

Priyaleen Singh

I believe by including Architectural in the title, the scope of the Charter gets somewhat limited and appears to be excluding items that may not be architecturally significant but have historic, social or scientific (archaeological) significance. The tension between the Title and the intent of the Charter becomes more pronounced as it talks about the protection/ conservation of traditional skill and use of traditional materials. I think this Charter should be for all types of heritage items not just architectural.

Rajeev Maini

The title including the term Unprotected give an impression that conservation & management principles for these potential heritage items are derived from their status as protected or unprotected. As recommended by the Charter, more and more heritage items are to be identified and legally protected. The title suggests that once an item is listed and protected by some legislation, this Charter will not be applicable any more. If that is the intent then punitive measures clause 6.5 that only relates to the listed items may not be necessary.

However, I suggest that the conservation and management principles be guided by the heritage significance of these items rather than their current status. This may already be the intent of this Charter but it is not very clear from the reading of the Charter.

Clause 3.2 hints that the management flexibility sought throughout this Charter relates to the items that are considered to be of lower significance than those having significance equal to ASI/SDA listed items.

If my reading of clause 3.2 is correct, this Charter is applicable to regional and local items only. When I say Regional and Local items I am referring to their significance at regional and local level. I think if this is what is sought, it should be made clear in the beginning of the Charter by answering the question – what is covered by this Charter.

However, I am not sure that this Charter should only be for some heritage items and not for the rest. I think a Charter should be for all the items. Different management conservation principles could then be recommended within this overall Charter for items having significance above or below a certain threshold. For this reason I feel that a more suitable title would simply be INTACH Charter for the Conservation of Indian Heritage.

 

Can we have it as INDIAN CHARTER?

Why unprotected only!!

(With reference to the clause that says - Respecting the invaluable contributions …) “Some of their work also makes our head hang in shame I know we have to be good but it can be diplomatic… despite limited resources type.”

(With reference to the clause that says - Valuing, ASI's pioneering role in promoting …) “Is it a true and honest statement!!!”

(With reference to the clause that says - Recognising, the unique resource of the ‘living’ heritage of Master Builders …) “Why forget smaller craftsmen who are great in their work too?”

(With reference to the clause that says - Recognising too, the concept of jeernodhari …) “As one of the tools/ philosophies.”

Vikas Dilawari

Charter for the Conservation ofUnprotected Architectural Heritage “and Sites (or another appropriate term)” of India

Nupur Prothi

1

1.1

1.2

1.3

1.4

Why Conserve?

The concept of ‘living’ heritage of India inspires the whole document, and ensures the ‘Indian-ness’ of Conservation in the Sub-Continent. It also leads to the inclusion of traditional crafts and skills (ref. 3.2.2).

Sir Bernard Feilden

We have Municipalities also which are now providing the protection to Heritage which is not under the Jurisdiction of ASI/SDA. Like Municipal Corporation of Delhi has issued list of buildings as protected by them or as Heritage Buildings. Do we expect these agencies to follow ASI or Proposed Document?

Munish Pandit

Charter For The Conservation Of Historic Towns And Urban Areas (Washington Charter 1987) says: “All urban communities, whether they have developed gradually over time or have been created deliberately, are an expression of the diversity of societies throughout history.

This charter concerns historic urban areas, large and small, including cities, towns and historic centers or quarters, together with their natural and man-made environments. Beyond their role as historical documents, these areas embody the values of traditional urban cultures.”

 

…you say that “uncontrolled” urbanism wipes out unprotected heritage. This suggests that there is “controlled” urbanism which spares this heritage. Talking of “uncontrolled” mediates a yearning for control, which will never happen and which will not serve the purpose.

In the same article you address a “sustainable basis” and an “ecological network”. These are two terms which made their round in the late eighties and entered whatever development strategy. I would not use these words. To conserve an “inter-dependent ecological network” seems to me a dream. You may say that conservation is altogether a dream. But more dreams enter into a charter the less it is credible.

Niels Gutschow

(… respect as the protected monuments.) “is not in culture of the people, nor in political mainstream and hence neglected presently like a fashion wave.”

(Much of this legacy … culture of the country.) “good point.”

(Its continued … monuments.) “word should be ‘heritage’ instead of ‘monuments’.

Vikas Dilawari

… I think it better not make a comparative statement, but perhaps to say that India is fortunate in having a significant amount of living heritage which contributes palpably to the country’s sense of place and its very character.

Ken Taylor

Any charter, Guideline or Recommendation cannot provide legal protection… It has to be adopted as an ACT. Are we looking for an Act?

Munish Pandit

… you say ‘unlike other societies’ where I would suggest amending the phrase to read ‘unlike most other societies’ because I would argue that in the UK, in many other European countries, and in Latin America - just to take a few examples - there is still a considerable amount of ‘living heritage’, though not always or often acknowledged as such.

Peter Burman

(This cultural characteristic is not legally protected …) “first it should be understood and then protected.”

(This civilisational marker … built environment.) “it is economical, efficient and time tested too.

Vikas Dilawari

Suggest you delete ‘at present’ to make the Charter last longer- i.e. into a future when, hopefully, the shortage of resources will be much less acute.

William Logan

If we have more and more projects and more Conservation Work is generated (and we perform as per Venice Charter i.e. using Traditional Skill and materials) Traditional skills will be propagated themselves.

Munish Pandit

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in Venice Charter (A.6).

Munish Pandit

Excellent point.

Vikas Dilawari

2

2.1

2.2

2.3

2.4

Conservation Objectives

All of it? Surely not. I think you need a reference here to ‘significance’ and a section under Conservation Ethics on the need to start the process by determining the heritage significance of places.

William Logan

Does it include modern buildings, Chandigarh, Gandhi Ashram etc.?

Vikas Dilawari

Both … ‘architectural heritage’ … ‘historic buildings’ … ‘setting’ … ‘historic precincts’ … environment.

I feel the need for each of these terms being clearly defined right in the beginning and then their consistent use in the subsequent sections.

Nupur Prothi

UNESCO: Operational Guidelines says it all. Architects alone are insufficient to tackle this issue… Anthropologist, Artists, sociologist etc. should be part… National Agencies Like IGNCA, Delhi University, IGNOU, JNU etc. should be part of it.

Munish Pandit

I find many of the sentiments in your Charter highly inspiring, for instance 2.2 where you say ‘the intangible heritage includes the still extant culture of traditional building skills and knowledge, the rites, ritual and social life and lifestyles of the inhabitants …’

Peter Burman

Very essential, great point but only where living traditions continue.

Vikas Dilawari

(Focussing on … intangible heritage.) “in some cases only as mentioned above.” (This ensures … it exists.) “fast eroding though.”

Vikas Dilawari

… the concept of Heritage Zone be included here.

S R Holkar

3

3.1

3.2

3.2          I

II

3.3

3.3.1

3.3.2

3.4

3.4.1

3.4.2

3.4.3

3.4.4

3.5.1

3.5.2

3.6.1

3.7.1

3.8

3.8.1

3.8.2

3.9.1

3.9.2

3.10

3.11.1

3.12

3.12.1

3.13.1

3.13.2

3.14

3.14.1

3.14.2

3.14.3

3.14.4

Conservation Ethics

The parallelism created on ethics of conserving monuments and traditional buildings separates legal way of conserving and traditional way of conserving. If we are accepting that traditional skills and methods of conserving are alive in India then why don’t we recognize this as a main process to architectural conservation?

The issue of architectural heritage of exemplary significance becomes debatable, and suggesting methods similar to ASI/SDA of protection for exemplary architectural heritage.

If you believe that indigenous architecture is locally evolved then why is that it is not fully recognized that its protection and sustainability lies in indigenous techniques of construction and repair?

There are innumerable examples of indigenous buildings, which are of exemplary significance. Should we follow ASI here?

If we believe that the INTACH Charter is to follow a different approach for unprotected architectural heritage then that of ASI and process recommended in Venice and other charters, then it can be clearly mentioned.

Does it take on any central and state conservation policies in India?

Rajender Singh

On the issue of permitting changes in the physical integrity of buildings, I entirely agree with your stance.

Ken Taylor

Points 3.1-3.6 are probably the most important of the entire paper but it is difficult to find these.

3.13 and 3.14 should be found on the first page because it differs from the “international philosophy”.

Niels Gutschow

There are certain clauses such as patina or reversibility which are not applicable to the Indian charter hence we can avoid mentioning them as the charter is not to define what aspects of the other international charters are not applied.

Pankaj Modi

Obviously, the section on Conservation Ethics will be of great interest to us here, as it will be to your fellow professionals in India, but I personally very much empathise with the idea that ‘official and legal conservation practice’ is appropriate for conserving ‘protected monuments’, but not necessarily appropriate for the wider heritage.

Peter Burman

Many of the theories and principles have come to India in the post-colonial period as the result of the UN system, through UNESCO, moving into the heritage conservation field. ICOMOS and other parts of the international system that generates theories and principles about the heritage conservation also post-date colonialism in India.

William Logan

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

(While western ideology … the opposite.) “but minimal ensures economic returns which is must for our country where resources are limited.”

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

Do you not see a time when official protection through ASI or SDA (or some other new agencies) might expand its scope and move beyond the large iconic places into the realm of ‘living heritage’ that is currently unprotected? In other words, are you sure that the current protection status of heritage places is fixed and the right way to classify places in your Charter?

How can these be an objective for conservation? Do you mean ‘before undertaking conservation’?

This seems to be giving a complete upper hand to development proposals and social welfare. I have no quarrel with the latter, but would it not be wise to qualify the reference to ‘development’ in some way? This could be done by adding at the end of the sentence the words ‘while seeking to achieve maximum protection of the significant values of the architectural heritage’.

William Logan

No Charter Oppose traditional practice to be used in conservation.

Line 2… “Western ideology underpins official and legal conservation Practice” Please explain …

Our traditional practices advocate minimum intervention… we always find layers of interventions in a historic building with only that much altered which was need of the time. In rare cases of any major / complete demolition and construction of new buildings old building materials were used with prevalent traditional techniques.

Munish Pandit

I would argue if traditions are alive still then that should be used even if its monuments, with rational analysis and not indiscriminate view of black and white, not the western or international standards. A simple example: cleaning of marble in Dilwara temples is not with Aretha so why introduce chemicals… it is economical… that’s a keep word if it has to sustain.

(The decision … knowledgeable raj mistri,) “/ustads.”

(In any case … undertaking conservation.) “continuity of traditions and economical viability.”

Vikas Dilawari

Assuming that this Charter is applicable to regional and local items only, Clause 3.2 II recommends that in this category one could either use modern or traditional techniques depending on the availability of skills. I have no problems with this. However, I have a problem with saying that development and welfare of the community will take precedence over conservation. My view is that conservation should be a part of the development process. They should be able to co-exist. Not one or the other. And who is to decide what is good for the community - so called development or conservation of a heritage item?

This clause is too open and creates a rivalry between Development & Conservation. I think the last sentence in clause 3.2 II should be modified. It is better to define the circumstances when it would be possible to allow major alteration/addition or even demolition of a heritage item. These circumstances could be:

Where the owner could provide acceptable evidence that:

  • the development is necessary for public good; and
  • all other viable options have been explored and are not possible due to insurmountable reasons; and
  • all effort has been made to minimize the impact of the development on the heritage significance; or
  • the heritage item is structurally unsafe for public etc.

The discussion about the western ideology Vs Indian ideology needs a bit more thought. In fact I am not sure there is that much of a difference between the western ideology and the Indian ideology. So-called western countries use local materials and techniques where possible and economically viable. But when they face challenges that cannot be met with traditional materials and techniques they use modern technology. United Kingdom is full on with its indigenous materials (lime mortars) for example.

In India also we use a mix of traditional and modern techniques depending upon the cost and availability of skills and materials. It is just that in India we tend to use modern materials for all Government works because the Govt. tendering system is designed that way. It has a schedule of rates for RCC but cannot handle a Rajasthani sandstone column with carving to match existing.

Rajeev Maini

On the other hand more often than not, traditional materials and methods are used for private heritage items because they are cheaper and do not need to comply with any government regulation.

My view is that use of a particular material or technique is case sensitive and usually a mix of modern and traditional. The issue here is APPROPRIATE materials and techniques rather than western or Indian. Where financially, technically and practically possible traditional materials and techniques should be used in the first place.

Part of Clause 3.2 (requiring INTACH to prepare lists), in my opinion, really does not belong in CONSERVATION ETHICS section. It is, though, an important part of this charter and should be included elsewhere within the Charter.

 

Nara Document says even More.

Munish Pandit

I commented on the use of ‘cultural landscapes’ before. Isn’t the tangible and intangible heritage, traditional knowledge systems, etc. also reflected in historic towns and other places that would not be termed ‘cultural landscapes’?

This clause seems to use the concept of ‘authenticity’ is an unusual way. I wonder if there is some confusion with ‘heritage values’ (or even ‘criteria’) here. Authenticity normally means that a place faithfully reflects the significant values for which it has been conserved and/or protected. It is the heritage values that should be determined by the context. This is what you say, in fact, in the next clause (3.3.2).

William Logan

This clause refers to the use of official and legal guidelines to determine the authenticity being determined. The reference should be clearer. Are we talking about existing legal and official guidelines (that almost do not exist) or some future guidelines/bye-laws.

Rajeev Maini

(… cultural landscapes) “please define this word … very confusing …a new entrant is it the same that western world uses for”, (in which it exists, particularly if it is ‘living’, should define the authenticity of unprotected architectural heritage. “Valid view point, one school of thought, to be endorsed.”

(In the absence … authenticity being conserved.) “great.”

Vikas Dilawari

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

Is it possible to define the scale for conjecture and acceptable limit in Indian context? If yes Why not discuss and define…

Munish Pandit

This clause says that Local Master builders must be encouraged to follow their traditions. No arguments about that but the key word is MASTER BUILDER – one who has been identified as having a certain level of sensitivity and skill. Should we also be thinking about a system to identify these Master Builders?

Rajeev Maini

(… contemporary exigencies …) “can a simple word be used for this?

It is easy said, the umbilical link in many cases have been broken, given a free hand it can be disastrous as in some cases where hybrid influence is seen of western plan form and Indian traditions, I have had experiences…

Vikas Dilawari

However, this where conservation architects should help in reviving traditions also by using their discretions by respecting master builders…I don’t know whether this clear… as things are not like Varansi and Ujjain in rest of the places, a lot of 19th cent especially temples the original links are broken, plus indo- saracenic architecture etc…the formula will need modifications… this needs discussion…and arrived at based on collective experiences.

 

The continuity of traditions out rules any other concept of authenticity. That is what I have learnt here.

Niels Gutschow

Good point where it survives.

Vikas Dilawari

The situations described in 3.4.1 and 3.4.2 do not appear to be conjectural. Conjecture occurs where there is no available evidence in the form of documentation, oral histories or physical remains of the previous structure. See Burra Charter.

William Logan

I have always felt that the term ‘conjectural restoration’ trivializes the action. Can it be replaced by a simple and honest term such as ‘rebuilding’ especially in this context since it is being done in an honest way by the master craftsperson?

Priyaleen Singh

This clause introduces a new concept of Conjectural restoration. Restoration is understood to mean re-fixing of original fabric (a fallen brick or stone) in its original location provided there is adequate evidence of its original location. Conjecture on the other hand refers to a guess or a vision of how a particular element should have been. I wonder if it is a typo and actually it meant to say Conjectural rebuilding instead.

Rajeev Maini

(Conjectural restoration … settings) “or the principals involved.”

(Its parameters … studies) “or based on practices and theory and present requirement too.”

This is still unclear however…its good for now can be dealt with after a 5 year review)

Vikas Dilawari

The comment about ASI 100 meters radius does not fit well under the title Conjecture. That radius purely relates to the protected Items.

Rajeev Maini

(The ASI/SDA rule … society.) “but often is the tool that’s saves the monument if used efficiently.”

(Ideally, for each … followed.) “Good point.”

Vikas Dilawari

This is better related to ‘authenticity’ rather than ‘integrity’. The latter refers to ensuring that there is not such an amount of change that the place loses its meaning or ‘readability’.

William Logan

Good point…things are not in clear black and white where hybridization has happened…domestic architecture of colonial cities for that matter.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.10)

Munish Pandit

But first attempts should be to reestablished traditional practices and materials should be first.

Vikas Dilawari

It depends whether the patina is part of the places’ significance.

William Logan

Venice charter does not insist on patina… it’s a general practice so far adopted by conservationists that too in monuments which are not felt suitable for reuse and are consolidated for posterity as an evidence of history.

Munish Pandit

I warm to your paragraph 3.6 about Patina.  In Scotland, we have many examples of tower houses of the 15-17 centuries being brought back from ruinous condition to living, comfortable and highly interesting homes.  We could show you many examples, some better achieved - no doubt - than others.

Peter Burman

‘In conformity with local aesthetic traditions’ can be a little subjective and controversial, as there often could be several local aesthetic traditions. May be this article need not be there. Although this Charter is attempting to cover all aspects, sometimes some things are better left unsaid.

Priyaleen Singh

(In conformity with local aesthetic traditions) “nice word but please define actually its very confusing in practice I can tell you that.”

Can be reviewed scientifically too where dirt and dust is a patina but harmful…requires more discussion or leave for review after 5 years.

Vikas Dilawari

Again, this is not the usual way the term ‘authenticity’ is used.

William Logan

While in principle the policy is right, I wish more was said about how to involve the community in decision making and at what level. Would it be good enough to involve the local MLA or do we need to do more? This to me could have the core of this Charter.

Rajeev Maini

(… decision-making.) “Only after educating the few good elders, Shantinath Jain teple in Mumbai was a disaster…refer MHCC rules on religious structures, I also came across a clause in some British India laws which gives flexibility… but has to be careful.

Good point but review larger areas like cities and small town which has more of hybrid colonial influence indigenous heritage.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.11).

Munish Pandit

I especially also like your paragraph 3.8 which is entitled Respect for the contributions of all periods. 

Peter Burman

Has also been mentioned in Integrity: 3.5.1

Priyaleen Singh

I feel here its playing clever…traditional solutions or common sense of present traditional craftsmen is not being used or even being suggested…As rightly said leave it evolving cultural significance.

Vikas Dilawari

(The coherence … meaning it holds) “what if community pattern has changed and has no meaning now.”

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.14).

Munish Pandit

(The conservation … reinforce it.) “positively where it exists.”

Vikas Dilawari

I fail to comprehend. How exactly an unprotected historic building/ precinct displays an apparent bond with contemporary society? It is engagement with the subject that allows for the bonding. Is it not?

With several provisions as in art. 3.14.1 objective of not hampering development in name of conservation is being achieved, then why this ambiguous idea.

Poonam Verma

Well if the Society does not want it… will not generate Conservation Project…

Munish Pandit

Should we say it in a Conservation Charter? Anyway even things of value are disappearing - do we have to specify that things of no value should be allowed to go?

Priyaleen Singh

This is a very open statement that can be used or misused rather by developers. In most cases the bond is not readily apparent, it is hidden in the books of history and is only revealed by careful study and analysis. The intent of the Clause is not clear. In the wrong hands this could lead to major loss of historic fabric.

Rajeev Maini

But provided it does larger good to the area and society rather than shear commercial exploitation to benefits individuals - a must.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter.

Munish Pandit

Another important emphasis comes under 3.10 where you say ‘in the first instance…conservation should attempt minimal intervention’.

Peter Burman

This clause is a bit unclear to me. Maybe if we turn it around it would read better. ‘In the first instance conservation should involve minimal intervention. However, substantial additions and alterations may be acceptable provided the significance of the subject heritage item is retained or enhanced.’

My view is that the intervention should be such that it has minimal impact on the significance of the heritage item. A new addition at the rear or alteration of the interior may be acceptable if it has little or no impact on the significance of the subject heritage items. As long as the significance is not compromised beyond an acceptable level, why limit the possibilities. But for this principle it is imperative that the significance is defined accurately.

Rajeev Maini

(Conservation … heritage.) “or for substantiality as is the case in some properties.”

(In the first … intervention.) “for conserving of resources which is paramount importance, second it makes it economical too.”

Vikas Dilawari

“The needs of the community” I would not know what that is. The needs of the community is always over ruled by the interest (profit) of an individual. How to find out the needs? Also the “socio-economic regeneration of the local communities” seems to be equally vague for me. My experience tells me that these needs are constructed by the expert in the filed…I feel fine to let conservation just happen, as a gift. Appreciation comes later; it grows slowly. When I read of “local communities” I always feel that this is the view from the center, from Delhi.

Niels Gutschow

(The nature … practices) “where alive … in megapolis they are dead.”

Community is passive in India…its nice to use the buzz word community participation but reality is very different.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.5, 10). Why not… are we so perfect to decide… for the purpose of structural stability and reuse…Venice charter does permit us to take required steps.

Munish Pandit

Is it necessary to state the first line: ‘The reversibility of interventions need not dictate the conservation strategy’? It might encourage people to abandon reversibility even where it is possible.

Priyaleen Singh

I keep getting this feeling through the Charter that it is somehow trying to pacify some concerns raised by the development lobby. Surely development and heritage conservation can co-exist. Clause 3.12.1 throws away the basis for calling something a heritage item or heritage precinct, that is its heritage significance.

Rajeev Maini

It is suggesting that heritage significance has no meaning when it comes to socio-economic regeneration of the local communities.

This is a very dangerous clause and can be used by DDAs of India to drive a bulldozer through historic precincts by claiming that a change of land use and higher FSR will bring about regeneration of the local communities (it probably will).

I recommend that the necessity for this clause be re-examined in view of its possible catastrophic results.

 

(The reversibility … strategy.) “However if it can then its great.”

(In order to … reuse) “benefiting a larger society rather than individually.”

(For this … modified form.) “Good point.”

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.9).

Munish Pandit

Good point - a solution to this was worked out in one project namely : stained glass restoration where the British experts wanted date, sign to be put in small corner of new panels so that from 6 yard it was not distinguishable but from 6” you can see it…we instead worked out a way that the date and sign goes in the lead and only a restorer can see, however I agree fully with point.)

Vikas Dilawari

Do we need to qualify ‘the artistic intent of the conservation architect’ else anything will go in the name of artistic intent. But I am aware it is a difficult qualification to make.

Priyaleen Singh

This clause allows the conservation architect to decide whether to replicate the old or not but does not set a guide as to what should be achieved as the end result. The idea of providing this flexibility is a good one and one that has found currency all over the world.

However, my suggestion is that this clause should clearly state that this flexibility is only available where the new work is sympathetic to the item and does not deter from its significance. Surely we do not want architects to create their own new monuments, sticking out of the old, like they do when asked to design a new building.

Rajeev Maini

But first attempt should be of reviving traditional material and technology.

Vikas Dilawari

The inclusion of this article as a component of Article 3: Conservation Ethics is questionable. Will it not be more appropriate as part of Article 4: Conservation Criteria and that too as the very last recommendation within it.

Poonam Verma

In case of demolishing and rebuilding, as suggested in the charter, it becomes open-ended and subjective to judge the situation and also how are we sure that this will be done or rebuilt in the same techniques it was built in.

Pankaj Modi

Despite a very well worded concept, it does not clarify whether the replacement is to emulate traditions or be contemporary perhaps following the basic built-up ratio. Is it new addition in the old fabric sensitive to the existing morphology?

The concept of Jeernodhar had its strength built in the limitation of building materials available in a particular region. Now it is not so and neither one can be sure of availability of the traditional materials and skills. Additionally, can one specify about the attitude of the new builder or the owner. Perhaps we can only aspire to specify that any new building replacing an old in a historic cultural landscape must display ‘awareness’ in concept and the highest quality in execution while being relatable with the existing built context.

Poonam Verma

This clause refers to replacing a heritage item that cannot be conserved. Are we talking about rebuilding what was there in the first place as is suggested by the heading or are we replacing it with something totally new that suits present context and expectations? In both cases the emphasis should be on the likely impact on the heritage significance of the subject heritage item.

Rajeev Maini

As a principle demolishing good, sound heritage and for commercial use is pointless and should be condemned, attempts to educate the people should be the first focus.. its like having snaps of grandparents and garlanding in place that they were alive and passing their values to youngsters.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.7).

Munish Pandit

(… thorough documentation.) “and understanding the traditional process if any as this gives an unique opportunity at least I have befitted from it.”

Vikas Dilawari

This clause repeats 3.9.2

William Logan

When does a historic structure outlive its significance? Who comprises ‘local people’? On one hand we talk constantly about sensitizing the various sections of society to the significance of our heritage … and lets also face it that the engagement with the ‘significance’ is largely a scholarly activity. Most just live with it. And that to me has come as the strength of our country. The ease with which our society lives with the traditions without labeling and boxing it as mental concepts. Do we really need this article? The drive to be modern and developed and the real estate driven aspiring builders are taking good care of getting rid of so-called insignificant heritage without formal sanction. Cess building regulations are also aiding such transitions amply.

Poonam Verma

If this is allowed… How many historic structures of Delhi have their meaning to local community or users? … Why conservationists saved Choumachi tomb in Mehrauli… We all know the contemporary use of Mirza Galib’s haveli … Do we have any chance for saving any structure in old Delhi? What about the Historic villages of Delhi.

Munish Pandit

Is this needed in a Conservation Charter?

Priyaleen Singh

Clause 3.14.3 is extremely dangerous in this respect. It suggests that if a historic structure has lost its meaning to Local people, parts of it may be reused to meet other exigencies. I would strongly suggest that this clause be taken out completely.

One example that comes to mind is the Wall of the Walled city of Delhi. Until recently it was not on the ASI/SDA lists and it was also not on the list adopted by MCD. Items such as these would come under this Charter. Clause 3.14.3 would technically allow a local Neta to get 1000 signatures from the LOCAL PEOPLE to prove that the Wall has lost its meaning to them and therefore should be demolished.

Rajeev Maini

(If a historic structure has outlived its significance) “naturally” …

(… other exigencies.) “More important is salvage to be reused as resources are limited like wood, cast-iron, stained glass, basalt stone etc…not be misunderstood that this encourages demolition.”

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.7).

Munish Pandit

Again like snaps of grandparents and garland why a western approach here if its traditional Indian site and setting, document the technique and art of process.

Vikas Dilawari

4

4.1.1

4.1.2

4.2.1

4.2.2

4.2.3

4.2.4

4.3

4.3.1

4.3.2

4.3.3

4.3.4

4.3.5

4.4.1

4.5.1

4.6

4.6.1

4.7.1

Conservation Criteria

Sustaining heritage, conservation tools and techniques are very region specific in India, especially in case of indigenous architecture. I have seen old temples having brand new fabric and are constantly rebuilt without losing their cultural significance. In such contexts where does the issue of conjecture and restoration arrive?

Do we want conservation to be professional-centric or people-centric?

Rajender Singh

This seems to be Conservation Objectives, rather than Criteria. (cf. World Heritage criteria, or the simpler Burra Charter criteria of aesthetic, scientific, social, spiritual, etc.

William Logan

Although I agree in general with the concept of moving away from the Protection as practiced by ASI and State Departments of Archaeology by putting Items behind bars, I do not think we need to achieve this by giving it all up either. There are several references in the Charter that lead me to believe this document is pushing too far too quick. Yes, the past must have a Present to be able to have a Future! But it should be a Present that is linked to the past. Probably it is just a matter of getting the words right so that the reader does not get the wrong impression. I am all for removing the shackles of ASI mentality in managing the future of heritage items to ensure a heritage item/precinct is treated as an asset in a regeneration project rather than a liability.

Rajeev Maini

It addresses the built character but not fully the visual character. The advertisements boards, signage, hanging wires, cables, AC units, dish antennas, etc. when all viewed together add to visual cacophony and detracts from the historic character immensely and perhaps, some recommendation could be formulated to address these.

Additionally, tasteful and sensitive lighting of selected heritage buildings can add to mass appreciation of the built fabric and thus bonding with it and needs to be mentioned.

Street furniture, paving material, street lighting, road signage etc. too all are component of visual character when viewed as group in context of historical settlement. Though components of urban design but when in historic district, objectives of conservation can mediate.

Poonam Verma

(This image … society.) “for personnel uses and avoid shear commercial exploitation.”

Vikas Dilawari

… or can be good honest modern too learning from rich past experiences viz a viz details, techniques materials, design, climatic and urabn design responsive…this is a debatable stuff, but a good point. I say good party manners you can be different but within certain quorum or discipline and not stand out as loud.

Vikas Dilawari

(Reusing … sensible.) “very often in cities and towns we misuse, abuse, overuse, and disuse…only in commercially unviable situations is a vacant property for adaptive reuse.”

(It is an … the process.) “with clever and creative modern ideas for its sustainability.”

Good point, but benefit to larger society and area is most important.

Vikas Dilawari

(Priority … functions.) “if they are valid…no forcing, education is very essential, that’s social role of conservation architect complementing his professional role.”

(Any new use … architectural heritage.) “should have some benefit for the society.”

Vikas Dilawari

And depending upon significance can allow contemporary materials as last option if they don’t harm the fabric and makes it sustainable.

Vikas Dilawari

Good point but truth is local people care less due lack of education of heritage.

Vikas Dilawari

And shouldn’t we mention here that they need to be involved in selecting an appropriate re-use from which they may directly benefit.

Nupur Prothi

In addition to the very well drafted recommendations in Article 4.3, perhaps recording process undertaken and display of the same wherever possible may be included. This may prove valuable at the time of fresh intervention in later years. Documentation of decision-making process and actual execution are important aspects for continuity.

Poonam Verma

Omit the word ‘anastylosis’, as only the Greeks understand what it really means.

Sir Bernard Feilden

A school of thought that I follow is that buildings are alive and are like patients and we are doctors operating it who use the best judgment to respect the original creations and does what’s essential as per medical ethics.

Vikas Dilawari

4.3.1 and 4.3.3 can be clubbed?

Priyaleen Singh

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

This can go in ‘Why Conserve?’ as it is talking about the rationale for conservation.

Priyaleen Singh

It may be worth enlarging it by a sentence or so to extend the parameters of your reference to experiential qualities of the built environment. This would then link over to the additions under integrity and be a good cross-reference.

Ken Taylor

(Conservation … building/ precinct.) “if cultural significance demands it.”

(It must aim … community.) “if economically viable whereas the patronage!!! Is there a market demand…”?

(The rebuilding … influence of globalization.) “good theoretically and ideally but reality is different results in poor imitation the sad examples seen everyday by the MHCC (Mumbai heritage conservation committee…key and success in good honest modern works too…debatable.”

Vikas Dilawari

Great point.

Vikas Dilawari

This clause might go better in the section on Conjecture.

William Logan

“… evidence supported by the knowledge of local craftspeople” - probably the most beautiful sentence of the charter.

Niels Gutschow

Discretion is to be used as many of the original links are destroyed or broken.

Vikas Dilawari

The second sentence: “the objective of this practice …” is intellectually challenging. … if sensibilities of mankind and culture is conceded to be in state of evolution constantly and if we accept that tangibles and intangibles are the records of this process at any given time then one can conceptualise continuity. However, I have difficulties in believing that one can ever recreate the ‘original meaning’. Perhaps at best, we may be able to interpret the ‘original meaning’ employing all tools and clues provided through the tangibles and intangibles and record the same to then pave way for recreation.

Poonam Verma

It can go in ‘Why Conserve?’ as it is talking about the rationale for conservation.

Priyaleen Singh

(The criteria … raj mistris,) “all traditional craftsmen” (labour and materials.)

(Prolonging … heritage) “which is the foundation of our heritage.”

Vikas Dilawari

Cost analysis short term vs long term.

Vikas Dilawari

It is much reduced in scope. The ICOMOS Charter for the Conservation of Historic Towns lists out main principles and objectives for the conservation of historic areas and perhaps deserves to be included in the reference list.

Poonam Verma

“social and economic aspirations of the society” - again a very vague expression. I don’t a “society” but many societies, groups, contesting dreams.

Niels Gutschow

(Conservation … society.) “ideal utopian situation where goddess Saraswati and Laxmi are together rarely seen but not impossible.”

(To that extent … option.) “change name of conservation areas or zones to sensitive development zones, it is a positive message.”

Vikas Dilawari

This has already been mentioned in 1.3.

Priyaleen Singh

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

5

5.1.1

5.2

5.2.2

5.3.1

Guidelines for Conservation

I suggest this is omitted, as this publication is out of print, and probably out of date, reference to it only complicates the situation.

Sir Bernard Feilden

Will the Feilden guidelines be an attachment to the INTACH Charter? I think they should be.

William Logan

How these are exclusive to Indian Context… Guidelines by John Marshal, being used by ASI hold as good…

We also Have “Icomos Charter- Principles For The Analysis, Conservation And Structural Restoration Of Architectural Heritage (2003)

Munish Pandit

Refers to guidelines prepared by Sir Feilden. I have absolutely great respect for him, but I wish the Guidelines for Conservation in the Indian Context were written by an Indian. If we cannot trust one Indian let us form a group to write the new guidelines.

Rajeev Maini

This can be enhanced or revised after discussions- however its great compilation till date, make it a book a note book or coffee table book easily reachable to masses which want to learn and restore their buildings)

Vikas Dilawari

… the mention that the Heritage Zone covering unprotected architectural heritage must (my emphasis) align itself with the development process may be misleading. Development, as we all know too well, often takes the side of commercial interests, leaving the heritage to sink in a flurry of constructional activity.

It would be better to emphasise the role which conserved heritage will certainly play in providing development through local income generation by tourism, craft, etc.

S R Holkar

And I support the idea of conservation being part of development as promoted by the concept of Heritage Zone.

Rajeev Maini

Please call it sensitive development areas as they do in France sets a positive message.

Vikas Dilawari

This is a policy decision by local governments. NGO can play a role of pressure group… its INTACH’s policy Decision.

Munish Pandit

(Regulations … Planning Act.) “with healthy debates within professional before making any law, like in this case of charter.”

Vikas Dilawari

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

6

6.1

6.2

6.2.1

6.2.2

6.2.4

6.2.5

6.2.6

6.3

6.3.1

6.3.2

6.3.2

6.3.3

6.3.3

6.3.4

6.3.5

6.5

6.5.1

6.5.2

Management

It is there in UNESCO: Operational Guidelines

Munish Pandit

Your sections 6.2.3 and 6.2.4 parallel our discussions in the constituent countries of the United Kingdom to achieve a regular and continuously updated review of the historic environment. 

(Incidentally, we have tended more and more in recent years to adopt the expression ‘historic environment’ as embracing not only buildings but also their historically or artistically significant contents, their settings, and their wider contexts.)

Peter Burman

This clause talks about entrusting the local communities with responsibilities. I suggest we use the words Enabling Communities. It is not enough to give responsibility. We must also give them the knowledge and resources to manage their heritage.

Rajeev Maini

Good point but debatable… Italy, Turkey and India are in same boat… consultation of select team of knowledgeable local people.

Vikas Dilawari

Our traditional skills, held today by raj mistris etc. are disappearing at an alarming rate. The creation of training centres where these skills can be taught to a new generation of craftsmen and women is essential if we, and especially our children, are to succeed in maintaining architectural heritage. INTACH can play a nodal role in bringing together teachers, from where ever they might be and students - local masons, carpenters, plasterers, and stone workers, to ensure that this knowledge is transmitted.

S R Holkar

If the conservation is to be properly institutionalized, focus is required in upgrading the date base for execution for the works. Urgently, needed are the detail specifications for traditional works to be compiled regionally and basic schedule of rates to be formulated in tandem with ASI and SDA for the same.

Poonam Verma

INTACH can bring about a major change by setting up regional or zonal resource centres with facilities available for testing, documentation and a panel of resource people well versed in the understanding of culture, technology and materials, geography and history of these regions.

Pankaj Modi

These were not part of INTACH’s Constitution so far?

Munish Pandit

Is it becoming a very INTACH specific Charter? Shouldn’t other initiatives also be following all that is stated in the Charter? May be there should be another document on the Role of INTACH, of which the Charter can be a part?

Priyaleen Singh

I am not sure that INTACH should see itself as an agency that needs to institutionalize conservation within itself. It should be quite the opposite. INTACH should be working towards making conservation part of everyday life. My understanding has been that it was doing exactly this through its chapters.

Instead INATCH should be pushing Governments to establish City or State level or even National Heritage Offices that can work on a legislative and administrative framework for heritage conservation. If not separate Heritage offices, even if INTACH could influence Governments to employ Conservation Architects as part of various Development Authorities, it could be a major movement forward.

Also I am not sure why does INTACH need to redefine its role by way of this Charter. Does it not have its own Charter that can be amended if it needs a new direction?

Rajeev Maini

Who prima fascia have served as watchdogs, as facilitators or a bridge between to demolish and to conserve and for educating masses, if it misses this role then we are heading for trouble.. they should not become professionals and professionals should not become activist or NGO’s.

Vikas Dilawari

Not by executing.

Vikas Dilawari

Rather than this negative point it should encourage good conservation and constitutes prestigious awards that bring conservation to focus.

Vikas Dilawari

Should be a lead organization and not compete with other local NGOs.

Vikas Dilawari

(INTACH must … heritage.) “That should be its basic role.”

It should have a center for intangible study and should share this information with practitioners.

Vikas Dilawari

The economic benefits listed out are all based on the government policies, which thus makes them all the more difficult to implement and accountable, but they are very welcome. But as the whole objective of the charter has been for local empowerment, why not the same economic benefits also be considered at these levels such as adoption of the building, re-use of the buildings for local social infrastructure, periodic use for the local traditions and functions, local methods of tourism benefits…

Pankaj Modi

This is purely Government policy based…

Munish Pandit

Futile - it first and foremost requires a PIL to abolish rent control act from heritage properties, what incentives will work if there is rent control… It’s a vote bank so no wants to bell the cat, rest of world abolished this draconian law of World War II in 1960’s and we still are endorsing it… Presently as per Supreme Court ruling the owners with turnover of 1 crore have to pay market rent has been a boon for conservation in Mumbai at least… This is first thing essential, second do not allowed salvaged to be sold… a national/local repository is essential… if these are introduced half the problems are solved.

Vikas Dilawari

I fail to see how INTACH’s charter can force Central & State Governments to include allocation for Heritage Fund in their budgets (Clause 6.3.2).

Rajeev Maini

Good point- case study MMRDA - good and bad both.

Vikas Dilawari

The policy of Adoption by a rich company (6.3.3) is a good one provided it is backed up by a rock solid contract. The Adoption must be time bound (two-three years at a time). Extensions may be possible provided the company has done what it said it would. There should be a clause allowing the owner to cancel the contract at short notice if it believes that the company is misusing the item/precinct. There should be a clause relating to penalties if the company damages/misuses the heritage item knowingly etc.

Rajeev Maini

These are things that Government Departments other than INTACH will need to get into and frankly speaking I am not very confident of what sort of contracts they can write. Maybe INTACH should prepare a MODEL contract for this purpose to give to various Govt. Departments.

 

Good point- should be complemented with awards well covered by media.

Vikas Dilawari

Hold on - Bombay has lot to say the hidden truth.

Vikas Dilawari

Govt. rules can never allow this, change the CPWD and PWD format first.

Vikas Dilawari

This clause refers to Punitive Measures relating to listed buildings. I do not see why this Clause should be in a Charter dealing with Items that are Unlisted.

Rajeev Maini

Omit ‘where opportunity exists, as a new set of regulations can be implemented’. This is a very dangerous suggestion.

Sir Bernard Feilden

Suggest deletion of reference to irreparable. Lesser forms of damage might also warrant prosecutions. It is not clear to me what the reference to ‘probable unrest’ means.

William Logan

No city has any teeth that are essential for protection…Bombay is the most impotent of all…the analogy that I use is heritage committee is like a sign beware of dogs for decent people however the crooks no that’s this only a board and that there is no dogs.

Laws should be with good sound base and flexible taking day-to-day needs and quality of life in account and should not be rigid based on role models in UK made by environmentalist going abroad on holidays and changing the name from London to respective cities.

Vikas Dilawari

7

7.1.1

7.1.3

7.1.4

7.2.2

7.2.4

7.2.5

7.3.1 (i)

(ii)

(iii)

7.4

7.4.1

7.5

7.5.1

7.5.2

7.7.1

7.8

7.9.1

7.9.2

7.10.1

7.10.3

7.11

7.11.3

Listing

Missing in the recommendation format for listing is Natural Heritage. As no format has thus been evolved for this important component, till date, the employed format has another selection criteria as Natural in addition to those mentioned in 7.3.

Poonam Verma

Though listing includes words like holistic and settlements etc. it presupposes a disaggregated and component (read building) oriented inventory. The interface with ecology and nature or architecture as a part of natural heritage sites has received only passing references.

Kiran Kalamdani

Do we need this section in the Charter?

In the complete section what is not western… US agencies (Dept. of Interior, NPS, NCPTT) have documented recourses (Professionals, crafts persons, agencies, online sources) for implementing the conservation plans. National register is based on their concept only.

Munish Pandit

The section on the making of and the purpose of an Inventory of Properties/Buildings is full of promising sentiments, not least the idea that listing should be presented to both scholars and the general public in a ‘simple, readable format, which would then aid conservation by generating public awareness’.

Peter Burman

I appreciate the need for listing but do not agree that we need to write the whole process as part of this charter. In the Charter we should be stating the principals rather than the details.

I am also wondering, is it not possible to adopt some international listing guidelines rather than reinventing the wheel again? That way we will be able to be part of the international database as the data will be readily comparable and transportable.

Rajeev Maini

Imagine, if at a future date we could search for 11th century minarets belonging to a certain architectural type in the world through a unified or linked database, we could find out that the Qutab Minar is based on the architectural lessons learnt from the Minaret of Jam in Afghanistan!

The other issue of import is the accessibility of this comprehensive list by general public. The list MUST be publicly accessible on the net. Without that the value of this list is going to be severely limited to the present and the future generations. Examples of such lists are already there on the net. I am so used to a net based inventory from my office that it seems almost waste of time to do anything else knowing it can be done. By the way the information that you see on the net is only part of the data. There is a whole lot more that relates to various approvals over time and administrative information etc. The Inventory is at www.heritage.nsw.gov.au

Also It is very important that whatever list be prepared, it be done on a well-established data base system. As the list will grow, it is going to reach tens of thousands in future. The database must be able to support not only listing but a management module should also be able to hang off it. It would be still better if these two could be linked to a mailing list and address book as well. I really wish I could show you what system we use in our office. It may not be the best but it does show what can be achieved or is required in the long run. In any case the point is that the Listing section should include a clause about the accessibility of the listing by everyone as an important part of the listing process.

Although I know how difficult it is, I almost yearn to see a time frame set by this Charter for INTACH to complete this comprehensive list. I am sure whatever time frame is set will not be met eventually but at least it sets a measure of success and a goal to look forward to. In the absence of any time frame, the efforts do not get a sense of priority and therefore allocation of funds. It will set a goal to achieve.

 

Please sit in a committee once that reviews this and see how many cases are heard on this format. Its great academically but practical is different strange in 20 years time we still don’t want to revise this based on experiences.

Vikas Dilawari

First and foremost no honorary heritage committees are required. Each municipal corporation and panchayat should have a full fledged department set up without it...do not blindly ape Mumbai it is has good points and bad points please incorporate good points and leave the bad points…

 

Is it necessary or appropriate to include this rhetorical and descriptive introduction to Article? The other Articles do not have similar introductory passages. This sort of rhetoric and description belongs to the start of the whole document.

William Logan

Please can we have an indigenous name rather a US copy.

Vikas Dilawari

(It would … Heritage Laws.) “This is not clear!!”

Nupur Prothi

I very much like your suggestion for a Register of Craftspeople.

Peter Burman

(Only on the … drawn up.) “With good healthy discussions amongst professionals and multi-disciplinary team rather being in hurry of being first.”

Vikas Dilawari

(The main aim … awareness.) “But with listing also its fast disappearing, Mumbai classic example…the MHCC should be called pastiche reconstruction board.”

(Ideally … cities.) “with clear demarcation of site and buildings.”

Vikas Dilawari

Can create many confusion, becomes a volleyball match, Bombay has many examples.

Vikas Dilawari

Why not cultural?

Please note while listing many a times you do it only from road … How can you comment on integrity without seeing it in detail, also people are hostile too, in cases - police protection is required.

Domestic architecture does not allow this, the person doing listing has to be a desirably a local with sound understanding or you get Jain omelete.

Please see from strength, type of repairs, maintenance point of view which has economics attached to it or it will be a good academic exercise only.

Vikas Dilawari

This is a topic in itself will refrain from commenting as I can write on paper on it based on my experience in Bombay while doing the list, as the member of committee and as practicing conservation architect.

Vikas Dilawari

… reference to important persons: would it be helpful here to point out that important does not mean rich and famous but includes people, and ordinary people, who have made/make significant contribution to India’s living heritage.

Ken Taylor

(Distinctive physical … a master.) “Craftsmen or architect.”

Vikas Dilawari

Historic Integrity: integrity relates also to intangible value such as association and cultural traditions, and I think it would be helpful to the Charter to include these.

Ken Taylor

Here ‘authenticity’ and ‘integrity’ are seen as one!

William Logan

This is ‘authenticity’.

William Logan

There should be a mention here of other related structures/development from the same era/reign located elsewhere. This will help to identify comprehensively the resources from a particular time period or style etc.

Nupur Prothi

Something should be said in this section about the determination of significance being the key component of the methodology. All conservation decisions flow from the level of significance that a place is seen to have.

William Logan

Please don’t use students to do this exercise if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

Vikas Dilawari

Probably some mention needs to be made here regarding intangible aspects: traditions, belief systems, rituals etc.

Nupur Prothi

The charter mentions “ownership details”. Another dream, because ownership is very often contested and the question alone will arouse hostility among the “local community”.

Niels Gutschow

What gets printed as law is an excel format and what the lister does is Microsft word thesis…strange dichotomy…see the essence and highlight…it should be focused and authentically right as this is the foundation on which the building stands. It dare not be wrong…again Bombay has sinking foundations because of this.

Vikas Dilawari

On extreme cynical but valid note just make Preservnor type guidebooks which sell well too.

Vikas Dilawari

Be careful about grading. This paragraph needs careful revision.

Sir Bernard Feilden

(This Charter recommends … Feilden) “If traditions are alive than not necessarily!!”

Is the charter for highlighting traditional practice and process only…strange, the start was good, but it’s getting diluted here?

Vikas Dilawari

8

8.1.1

8.1.2

8.2.1

8.2.2

8.2.3

8.2.4

8.2.5

8.3

8.4.2

8.4.3

8.5.1

8.5.2

8.6.2

8.6.3

Education and Public Awareness

Academicians must discuss…

Munish Pandit

This Article should include the DOER. Who is expected to carry out these tasks that are listing under these clauses. If the reference is to INTACH then is it still part of INTACH’s role (6.2) and not a separate Article?

Rajeev Maini

Vague. Responsibility “entrusted to the local community”. Who would that be?

Niels Gutschow

This clause again talks about entrusting the local communities with responsibilities. I suggest we use the words Enabling Communities. It is not enough to give responsibility. We must also give them the knowledge and resources to manage their heritage.

Rajeev Maini

Shantinath temple is one example on one extreme-requires debate.

Vikas Dilawari

Good point then why does govt. fail in delivering this.

Vikas Dilawari

Awards - recognition is the most positive and effective tool.

Vikas Dilawari

Good point, but should be done by involving locals and not elites entering local enclaves and getting publicity, the people should benefit not few individuals.

Vikas Dilawari

Start with industrial houses, banks, rich people who can afford to be patrons and make it sustain and they get recognition and then educate others on its benefits by then the process becomes economical for sustaining too.

Vikas Dilawari

A thesis topic beyond the scope for comments.

Vikas Dilawari

This should read as ‘INTACH should encourage Governments at all levels and their associate authorities to support …’

Rajeev Maini

Good points.

Vikas Dilawari

Better still just do a project with them and become students.

Vikas Dilawari

First learn to construct and then learn to conserve and not vice versa.

Vikas Dilawari

By ‘primarily’, do you mean ‘principally’ or ‘initially’? I would not accept the former, but accept the latter.

UNESCO is a international government organization made up of Member States with equal rights. India is one such Member State. It is not ‘foreign’; it is not accurate or fair to characterize the set of principles etc. that it espouses as ‘foreign ideology’.

William Logan

…the charter questions the ‘universality’ of foreign ideology. I do not particularly like the use of the word ‘foreign’, because it creates an opposition between “us” and “others”. It could be enough to say “universality of any ideology”.

Niels Gutschow

(In addition to … and conservation.) “Sorry, in that cases at undergraduate level this should be understood, why we know St Pauls better courtesy Banister Fletcher not why not what Sthatpathi’s or Sompura know our own dew on threshold.”

(They should … foreign ideology.) “This can work where traditions are not alive though.”

Vikas Dilawari

These youngsters should first be given a chance…where does this happen, we ourselves responsible for that too.

Vikas Dilawari

Add an ‘s’ to the word Architect.

Sir Bernard Feilden

Give respect and dignity to master craftsmen and see the wonder he does.

Vikas Dilawari

8.6.4

Where applicable.

Vikas Dilawari

9

9

9.1.1

9.1.3

9.1.4

9.1.6

9.1.12

9.1.13

9.1.14

9.1.15

9.1.16

9.1.19

9.1.20

9.1.26 (h)

Code of Professional Commitment and Practice

Conservation is to be a shared responsibility between people, state and central govts., conservation professionals and other support professionals. Let us not have a rigid framework on dos and don’t. The professionals working on conservation in Indian are still in very early stages and it would need more time for the profession to evolve before we are ready with a stick.

Rajender Singh

I would advise to separate the code of conduct from the paper, because it makes you aware of misuse in such a way that you (me) get embarrassed.

Niels Gutschow

The other aspect that has been seen here is that conservation is not the works of only architects but even planners and engineers. Therefore, the code of practice should cater to the larger group.

Pankaj Modi

No clause is different from Council of Architecture… which all conservation Architects abide with (as they are registered with CA). Do we need to re-sign this?

Munish Pandit

My view is that this does not belong in this Charter. It should be a separate document.

By the way what are INTACH’s Scale of Charges. I would love to get hold of the official scale of charges.

Rajeev Maini

Ambiguous.

Poonam Verma

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

Honesty and integrity is must.

Vikas Dilawari

Strange that COA fee structure involves no practicing person and we like fools are agreeing to 8.5%.

Vikas Dilawari

Do not bid or grab a project without first consulting the original professional.

Vikas Dilawari

Supportive documents perhaps need to be made available.

Poonam Verma

There are no terms and conditions of engagement at present - which was my grievance with INTACH.

Priyaleen Singh

This is opening pandora’s box…I disagree it should be based on one standards ie COA standards only and if INTACH wants coordination fees it should be over and above, also serving two masters is very conflicting until a clear MOU is there between owner and sponsor/facilitator, copy rights should be that of the creator/author.

Vikas Dilawari

(Not supplant or attempt to supplant …) “simple word please.”

Vikas Dilawari

Supportive documents perhaps need to be made available.

Poonam Verma

It should be COA not INTACH.

Vikas Dilawari

Is this applicable to INTACH too!!!

Vikas Dilawari

Not clear.

Nupur Prothi

Disqualified by whom: Council of Architects?

Poonam Verma

Or be on committee and award works to their associates, not to be turn key contractors.

Vikas Dilawari

If you get paid…INTACH and clients should learn how to pay first then this clause can introduced.

Vikas Dilawari

That’s a debatable one.

Vikas Dilawari

   
 

General comments

I do endorse the need for a Charter, but it must promote flexible approach to address the regional variations and considering that we are still trying to define our path in the process of conserving architectural heritage.

Rajender Singh

Articles 1 and 2 could go into INTACH’s role, as defined in Art. 6 (Management), 7 (Listing) and 8 (Education and Public Awareness).

Art. 9 stands quite separate, and need not interest the public too much.

This is a praiseworthy document, and I hope subject to being sub-divided into three parts will be approved.

Sir Bernard Feilden

…change and rebuilding in eastern cultures is part of the tangible and intangible value of buildings and places. The very act of applying traditional skills and craftsmanship is part of this value.

Ken Taylor

Pilgrims; Media’s role; State’s role in public buildings, post offices, railway stations in small places; the govt. ASI has preserved the greats but we are now interested in filling the jigsaw puzzle - Lodi buildings everywhere - a cluster that UNESCO gives WHS status to now; Feel you idolize the ‘locals’ too much - we know the locals are changing very fast - do we accept the dictate of those who don’t know any better? Those who have lost their relationship with the environment; architectural heritage issues are linked with environmental issues; the art of ivory carving and the protection of elephants, so also the loss of bamboo forests, natural resources like stone, mining, forest produce - we need to be aware of the balance between the natural materials we are using and how we are conserving these resources; I would add the role of panchayats training them in protection and cleaning and looking after, sourcing information also; ASI using poly…to coat sculptures of Sanchi; Feel that your irreversible clause to be quite dangerous.

Shobita Punja

I commend the initiative to have a charter for the conservation of unprotected heritage.

S R Holkar

Frankly speaking, it is more, than a charter, it is long (too long?)

I would appreciate a two-page summary communicating the “spirit” of the charter, the appreciation of the living heritage of Sompuras and Raj Mistris. And that there is this resource that leads you to reconsider issues like replication, reconstruction and other issues which the “international charters” have been out ruling. And of course the fact that documentation is one way of preserving heritage from oblivion.

Articles 1-4 form the centerpiece. The other articles could form an annex. To circulate the “philosophy” among internationals of the world would be very fruitful. Then comes INTACH, details of listing, code of conduct. All this could be separate as it is about “how and what to do” with too many “must” and “should”, the language of yearning.

Niels Gutschow

The hybridity: historic buildings and historic ways of building as imperatives of conservation can not be isolated from the third very important dimension being the planning policies which are drafted in ignorance of the cultural landscape and thus resulting in major threat to the same.

As recommendation and long-term strategy, state tourism departments could be encouraged to sponsor/ support listing exercises. Thus one creates a stakeholder within the Govt. and secondly the drawn list then presented to municipal bodies has endorsement of Govt.

What about professional conduct of the NGOs involved in this field? The recent trend demands further deliberation to formulate the same. In the present scenario in general article 6.2.5 and 6.2.6 gain paramount importance. The process of constituting advisory committees at regional level and national level and the expected professional conduct should be deliberated upon and included after a fair debate.

Cognisance of the current developments will be beneficial, where born out of frustration and in view of survival; conservation professionals in the country are in process of forming an association and are addressing many of the prevalent issues through group deliberations. This charter does not reflect sharing of the concerns.

Number of players is increasing and so if the discontent. Building up partnerships with all concerned needs to be initiated by INTACH and set up example of professionalism first within and exert honest review of its own conduct visa vi the conservation professionals and other concerned groups.

Poonam Verma

In considering the ethical issues I cannot agree less, as the title mentions, the need for local approach than an universal or an approach that is even general to the diverse India. However, the approach either if universal or based on local traditions and techniques underlines the objective of conservation as not to disturb the elements contributing to the significance of heritage.

In the process of continuous maintenance, repairs and changes it is quite but obvious to respond to the available materials and techniques. A classic example is the large temple complexes in Tamil Nadu. The temples there do not face the problem of funding and the local people take up the works of conservation and maintaining the temples and the results are disastrous to see. The question is, through this charter how can we still continue with the existing approach but also get the desired results.

There is a need to inventories and recognize buildings in an alternative system (not grading on stylistic basis that is largely followed presently). The system would recognize heritage either as a living heritage of the heritage that is representative of a time, where the reasons, which manifested into the built have ceased to exist. This will then define the conservation approach. In cases, which belong to the former category, the approach will have to be a local response and in cases of latter, the international and legal approach could be adopted, to maintain the authenticity.

The other important aspect that I found missing from the entire charter is the emphasis on Documentation, not only of the buildings, but also of all the processes, interventions and building traditions. The lack of same, historically, has always been a matter of concern in deciding future strategies.

The other aspect that has been loosely defined is the urban conservation, which has to be based on urban design studies. This doesn’t bring out the various complexities and an integrated approach that needs to be considered.

Thus from my experience I bring out the following points which could be helpful in further strategizing training programs and workshops:

It was more heartening to see at both these places the experience of the craftsmen, which comes in handier than the academic experiences when it comes to taking decisions. The ability of them to recognize the problems and solutions are so fundamental.

In Norway, the craftsmen were trained in the conservation approaches while in India the craftsmen are more relying on their experience, which results in the continuity.

In Norway, I found the craftsmen taking up the entire process of documentation, analysis, decision on the approach, selection of the materials, techniques etc. all by themselves while here this is handled by the team of craftsmen and conservation architect.

Pankaj Modi

 

In Norway, there were apprentices from the professional courses with the craftsmen, which doesn’t happen here. This actually helped us to understand the processes and the applicability of the theoretical approaches and ethics, in using traditional techniques, authenticity of material, recycling or reuse of the existing material, understanding of the construction processes, etc.

I congratulate Mr. AGK Menon for this commendable effort and INTACH for the initiative.

 

Sir Feilden has suggested India should have its Charter of Conservation. INTACH is an NGO. It can surely have its own Charter. But as an NGO can it have a "Charter for Conservation of Unprotected Monuments of India" without a mandate of the State and maintain its sanctity or authority?

If the State (tomorrow) also writes another Charter for Conservation of Unprotected Monuments in India what shall be the status of INTACH's Charter? If the state recognises and adopts INTACH charter, well and good but is there any guarantee to that effect?

I am assuming a possibility of conflict. May be that I am wrong please tell me if I am, whenever.  

If any other NGO too comes out with another Charter for Conservation of Unprotected Monuments of India, won't there be some confusion for people at large. Or it would be an open choice? In other words can there be Multiple Charters of Conservation for of Unprotected Monuments of India? If there are more than one charters what would be the nature of relationship among them.

And if there should be One Unique yet Dynamic Charter for such purpose, can it be ensured by making an INTACH charter first.

In relation to Listing in this context:

What is the objective of INTACH listing? Is it for internal use? If so, I have nothing to say. Otherwise, I again suspect there may be confusion If another NGO also does similar listing, I can see there is a clause somewhere about something like co-operation with others. Yet I feel that there is a high possibility of competition even in this regard. Will that be ultimately beneficial?

Also for example if any State Agency like NDMC or Varanasi Development Authority   undertaking Listing work floats a Tender for financial and technical competitive bidding like their 'Vision Statement' or 'Gole Market project' for such work will INTACH participate as a bidder or be an advisor to the listing excercise? Can it do both? Is it alright for the IMAGE of INTACH if they lose the bid?

Rajat Ray

All the nine articles of this charter have touched upon almost all aspects that we deal with as Conservation Architects and I wholeheartedly congratulate all those who have worked towards this document. It is truly a document of great cultural value for Conservation Architects in India and it is our privilege and duty to query and quiz over this exercise to make it complete, comprehensive and sustainable. I humbly offer some of my suggestions and questions in response to the material sent.

There is too much emphasis on the visual and physical aspects of architecture. We experience architecture as a rapidly changing reference frame full of mythology, symbolism, historic associations (either correct or incorrect), loaded with political undertones against a background of a growingly intolerant society. Should there be more research, self-assessment, and understanding of these recent trends that are emerging in our society if we are to treat the hotly contested terrains in cities, towns and villages as our heritage?

Should this research documentation dissemination and awareness educate the emerging India about balanced attitudes, holistic appraisal of heritage and consolidating the wisdom of the past to forge a better future? Should the culture managers gear themselves towards such long-term objectives as against the short-term ad-hocism that is so prevalent in our systems of governance and bureaucracies?

There is little or no emphasis on how this cultural renaissance is to be made possible with the resources needed for it. Article 6.3 (Fiscal Measures) needs to be elaborated upon extensively where the role of the private sector and growing economy needs to be carefully utilized as a resource.

The Following corrections may please be made to the list of project reports on pages 20, 21 & 22:

a. Add between No 41 & 42 - 1995 Group Godavari Godavari Action Plan - Riverfront Development Component.

b. No102 Anjali & Kiran Kalamdani Pune GPO
c. 117 1991 Anjali & Kiran Kalamdani Revitalizing Environs of Shaniwarwada, Pune.
d. 1989 K.T.Ravindran Vrindavan: Restoration of Keshi & Pandawala Ghats

Kiran Kalamdani

I do appreciate the initiative taken to do some thing exclusively for India…Some thing of our own…to be together…to bring everyone for the cause…But what is the cause…Are we sure about it…

The Profession has 20 years of Experience, can we first list out such exclusive Indian issues and work on them… Honestly!!!

Munish Pandit

 

We also missed out Enormous Archaeological Heritage over which today we are building sports complexes and housings… (Examples are here within Delhi) “Is this is beyond the Scope”. Can we isolate this so simply…when we are emphasising on precincts and Zones?

“Vernacular Heritage”…. Are we considering it as Architectural Heritage only…

Over the past 20 yrs. What has been achieved… conservation fee structure? Rate Justification for conservation work? Standards, ethic, code of conduct? Recognition as specialised professionals where “unqualified/ inexperienced” can’t experiment with our invaluable heritage…

… Documentation and Documenting Process of Conservation is not at all touched upon as this is something which future Conservation Professionals may rely upon.

Information Dissemination is also not touched upon … that is as Venice Charter A.16 suggests: Issue of Publication of conservation work!!!

I do feel that majority of issues raised are very much resolved by Existing International charters and Guidelines.

 

Recently I came across the ‘Charter for conservation of unprotected Architectural Heritage of India’. While going through it I felt that there are a number of issues, which need to be debated. I am highlighting some of the issues below:

What is a Charter? Is it guidelines, procedures, code of practice, policy for public awareness or a combination of everything?

What is the Charter to be based upon? Isn’t it supposed to consolidate the research and experience in implementation, accumulated over a number of years?

What is the process for preparation of a Charter?

Is legal status of the resource to form the base on which Charters are formulated? In a number of Indian Cities the local government has protected a number of previously unprotected heritage structures. Are they excluded from the Charter?

Should things like listing format be a part of the Charter?

Then there are a number of issues, which arise out of the contents of the Charter:

What do we mean by Heritage Management?

What is exemplary significance?

Chetan

Nalini Thakur agrees with him entirely.

(As per message no. 122, dtd. Oct.3, 2004; posted on 2004cam group website).

 

How do the provisions of the Charter apply to complexes and areas where individual components have differing significance?

Is the division of ‘Western’ and ‘Indian’ approach valid? Is the Nara document irrelevant?

Does Venice Charter epitomize Western Thinking? Is it that there has been no further thinking in the profession after that?

 

In India, we have maximum legislation. But still we are enacting more. We have never bothered to enforce the existing ones. Most of our Planners, Architects, Engineers, Executives, Bureaucrats, bla-bla. are not aware about the basic issues of conservation. Why we have immediately got up from sound sleep and wanted the approval for the charter?

We must evaluate the role of INTACH in this period. We should diagnose the problems and find out the remedies.

Next stage is to work out priorities. We should think of quality and not quantity. What services INTACH is getting from the so-called "YORK SCHOLARS"? What is the contribution of INTACH Chapters (in terms of quality and not just quantity)?

We are thankful to INTACH,British council, above all Charles Wallace Trust for making as addict to the cause of Heritage, but, then has INTACH  EVER BOTHERED TO SEE THE PLIGHT OF THESE ADDICTS?

Balvinder Singh

(As per message no. 127, dtd Oct. 4, 2004; posted on 2004cam group website).

My personal feeling about the charter is:  There should be a draft form of a charter (from someone in this field who has/ used to have the experience of being engaged in conservation activities in different regions in India) to be modified and improved over a couple of meetings and discussions at local levels (with a draft charter as a base) with a feeding system to the national level for final discussion and approval. We should not hurry but we should work within a timeframe and a work schedule.

… if you (Rajat) or Nalini thinks that the charter is not possible to be written for various reasons let us agree or disagree with it as a individual in the group.  If we find that more people feel that the charter is necessary then lets go ahead with it or otherwise.

One may agree to a point or disagree to a point in the charter.  The question is whether one is in favour of developing a charter or not and within a time frame and with an agreed process of its development and without any doubt in a democratic participatory way.

Not that this charter has to be pushed now and passed this time at the INTACH 25 years celebration. I would think that we should discuss and agree upon a methodology in the INTACH Convention in November about the democratic participatory process towards the development of the national charter and work out a time frame and a calendar of meetings for modifications and finalisation.

Manish Chakraborty (As per message no. 123, dated Oct. 3, 2003: posted on 2004cam group website).

I think this is a magnificent initiative … I want to begin by expressing the strongest possible support for your initiative and to express the hope that the Charter will be adopted with acclaim at INTACH’s National Convention on 2 November.

Thanks to Navin Piplani, I am aware of the unique resource of the ‘living heritage’ of Master Builders who follow the traditions, and practise the skills of their forebears.  In fact, there is a passionate interest in Scotland and in the UK generally in perpetuating and honouring traditional skills.  Although we have nothing like the living tradition of India, we do have a surprising number of craftsmen still who are following in the footsteps of their fathers and grandfathers.  I can think of a number of examples, without any hesitation.

In fact, there are many more correspondences between our current concerns in Scotland and yours in India.  For example, we are learning more and more to value our heritage of vernacular buildings, together with the materials and skills with which they have been built and maintained, and also their contexts.  It could be said of us also that ‘living heritage’ defines the character of a country in a more intrinsic manner than iconic monuments, or certainly than iconic monuments alone.

I find many of the sentiments in your Charter highly inspiring, for instance 2.2 where you say ‘the intangible heritage includes the still extant culture of traditional building skills and knowledge, the rites, ritual and social life and lifestyles of the inhabitants …’

I am sure we would all support what is said about the essential necessity for a ‘comprehensive inventory of the extant heritage’ and all the wise and sensible recommendations, which are, enshrined in sections 7, 8 and 9.

I hope I have said enough to convince you that the INTACH Charter 2004 will be of enormous interest to professionals and interested members of the public here in Scotland, as no doubt also elsewhere in the UK. Twenty years is, indeed, an appropriate time to take stock.  Having made four extensive journeys in India, and having had - at York - the privilege of training and encouraging young architects desiring to specialise in conservation (and having been greatly encouraged and strengthened by them, I would add) I can only offer INTACH the warmest possible congratulations on achieving its twentieth birthday.  Your Charter enables INTACH, however, not only to look back and celebrate the achievements of the past but also to look forward to a future inspired by a coherent and well worked out vision.  Many congratulations!

Peter Burman

I think both Munish and Pankaj among others have said most of the relevant things and will not like to repeat but they are all mportant observations and needs further discussion.

I think ‘conservation’ as a concept is anyways ‘western’ so I think it’s worth recognizing it as such.

Divay Gupta

There are many other ‘western’ things and thought that we have accepted as part of our evolution, so this may not be so ‘difficult. In fact if we are talking about conservation then as the saying goes ‘conservation begins where tradition ends’. Here is where perhaps we differ. Tradition never ends here and continues creating the dilemma, but this can easily be resolved by the resources itself, that we wish to conserve. Borrowing from Kennedy ‘ask not what youwant but what does the history expects/ want from you.

‘Principles remain same’ - universal, but the practices may differ, but we may then like to define the principles applicable to us; based on which practices and methodologies can evolve; which may then further develop into guidelines, code of practices, roles, etc.  One of the recent issue being debated among material conservation professionals is the idea of’ standards’ (not standardization) the bench marks, not minimum but optimized and maximizing the resources.   I think all the above aspects should be kept separate as each has a different ‘self life’ and follow a particular order within the evolutionary framework.

In the context of living traditions it is generally assumed that the traditional practices are evolving and continuing and thus should be continued. But we should then answer where do evolution stops and devaluation starts, and their relevance should be reinforced scientifically.

Then there is a question of ‘replace ability of’ history. Can heritage be replaceable however much ‘living culture’ one has?  Should there be a distinction within ‘tradition’ and ‘traditional’ (like methods employed for conservation).  Should we celebrate and count our ‘gains’ when a 15th century temple is demolished to make a ‘bigger, better, whiter replica in its place or should we look what we have ‘lost’ in terms of human history?

There is of course scope for multiple viewpoints esply as we have multiple contexts, approaches, typologies, and methodologies but the challenge is of course their reconciliation - the middle path.

 

My response to the text of the Charter is generally positive. It is a statement of what one has been practicing - working with you, subsequently practicing conservation on ones own and in the teaching profession. There is a little I can suggest to improve it, in language or in content.

The section on Code of Professional commitment and practice, Art. 9, as also perhaps part of the Listing are common for all practice, conservation or architecture etc. Do they have to be there in a Charter, if so may be some aspects, that do not happen in mainstream practice such as acknowledging the works of masons in the team profile etc. etc. should be highlighted. Same with listing; additional aspects that would not normally come in the conventional ‘monuments’ listing. The aspects can emerge after more discussion.

Priyaleen Singh

To start with let me express my views on why this Charter as I have noted from CAM2004 e-mails that there are those who do not think it is a good idea. I received the Charter with a lot of interest. After all my thesis for the course at York way back in 1989 originated from my concern that while ASI and State Departments of Archaeology Protected only a fraction of what could and should be termed as heritage items or places, tens of thousands of buildings and precincts went unidentified let alone protected.

I believe that no government will ever be able to legally protect all these Living heritage items. What we need is to Enable Communities to Conserve Their Heritage. And that was the topic of my thesis at York. My work under your guidance at Ujjain confirmed my belief that enabling communities is the most rewarding management strategy for conservation of these items.

For me the Charter is recognition above all that all those unlisted/unprotected items are worthy of our concern. INTACH might say that it has always been its concern and I accept that. But the concern needed to be translated into a form that is acceptable to all the stakeholders. This Charter, to me, tries to do that in principle.

To me this charter is a way to have a common understanding among the stakeholders on:

  • What the concerns are?
  • What is covered by this Charter?
  • What is expected to be achieved by this charter?

How to manage this unprotected heritage?

Although in my comments I might have concentrated on concerns only, I consider the idea of this Charter to be a great leap forward. It dares to promote the idea of unshackling the heritage of India from negativity and freeze mentality. Although the idea that a heritage item can be developed for day-to-day use will take getting used to, it is the only practical option. The current practice of freezing a heritage asset from development in the face of enormous urban pressures ultimately leads to unauthorized use with which the authorities are unable to deal. The damage caused by the unauthorized use could be avoided if an appropriate development was allowed to happen within a certain conservation framework.

However, the amount of change we are willing to accept must be clearly defined and guided through this Charter. This is why at our office we call conservation to be a process of Managing Change rather than Protection.

I feel that the Charter has a lot to offer and I am sure extensive consultation has already taken place in the preparation of this draft. But obviously some members of the conservation community are still struggling with the whole idea of this Charter.

Rajeev Maini

 

My experience is that it is not enough to do the right thing but it is also important to be SEEN to be doing the right thing.

It may be that at the conference this Charter is presented to the conservation community as a Draft that will go through a process of wider consultation and be adopted next year on the eve of INTACH’s 21st birthday.

It may seem excessive period of time but I believe it is worth the wait, as the strength of this Charter will come from the ownership by the Indian conservation professionals and enthusiasts. It is worth investing this time in creating this ownership.

 

Points to Ponder:

Please clarify whether INTACH should work themselves and compete with us…is that acceptable as a professional…Can we serve two masters, will COA rules be applicable to INTACH…In an event of an accident due to wrong judgment what happens, who is responsible…INTACH or professional…Are turn key in-house projects allowed for INTACH…why dual stands…?

Vikas Dilawari

The Charter document is a commendable effort and it has taken some time to go through the entire document.

I am not questioning the need for a charter and have gone straight ahead to understanding the document and analyzing whether it fulfills my expectations as conservation professional. Some of my general observation are:

(1) In the Title of the Charter do we want to restrict it to Unprotected Architectural Heritage only? I feel the need to add historic site/precinct or change the name to built heritage or heritage property or some other more appropriate term. This is because even in the case of protected monuments there is some space demarcated around the building.

However, in the contemporary conservation scenario built heritage is no more being considered in isolation from its precincts rather there is a greater significance being attributed to the relationship of the building and its site, the site and its setting and so on. Therefore, if we are formulating a charter in 2004 we might as well take this larger and more realistic context as a starting point instead of returning to a limited version of the charter for revising it in a few years.

Nupur Prothi

(2) Probably at the beginning or in Article 2 on ‘what to conserve’ there need to be some general definition/description of the historic environment, natural and cultural heritage, historic property, heritage property, architectural heritage, built heritage and any other such related terms that are being used in the text as many of these have been used interchangeably which may not be appropriate. We need to probably restrict ourselves to using one or maximum two of these terms, which are found most appropriate.

(3) In article 6.2 the role of INTACH is mentioned specifically. As this charter is a long-term document should we not add the role of INTACH or similar bodies (that may play a significant role in the future)?